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The Change Resilient Podcast Episode 6: Jason Baer on Building Organizational and Leadership Resilience

The Change Resilient Podcast Cover Jason Baer.png

 

 

Episode six is a warm, human, multi-dimensional conversation with the deeply thoughtful Jason Baer⁠.

 

Jason is the CEO of SYPartners, a transformation consultancy that has spent more than 30 years helping leaders and organizations navigate moments of consequential change. Jason joined SYP in 2013 and became CEO in 2026 after serving as Managing Partner, Chief Client Officer, and President. Jason has advised senior leaders at organizations including AARP, NBCUniversal, Alphabet, Coach, Verizon, and Paramount. 

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In our broad and fluid conversation we discuss purpose, organizational resilience, leadership, the pace of change, some of the books and ideas that have shaped Jason—and what he’s learning now that he’s sitting in the CEO chair himself.

 

​Listen on Spotify Apple, Amazon, YouTube, and wherever you enjoy your podcasts. 

Links from show references include books: 

Along with articles:

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​​​Show transcript (slightly edited for clarity, machine transcribed, apologies for errors): 

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[00:02] Steve Semelsberger: Hello, welcome everybody to the Change Resilient podcast. My guest today is Jason Baer, CEO of SY Partners, a transformation consultancy that has spent more than 30 years helping leaders and organizations navigate moments of consequential change. Jason joined SYP in 2013 and became CEO in 2026 after serving as managing partner. Chief Client Officer and President. Jason has advised senior leaders at organizations, including AARP, NBCUniversal, Alphabet, Coach, Verizon, and Paramount. And Jason's an old friend. He was a colleague of mine from my own beloved time as the president of the individual transformation practice at SYP.

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[00:46] Steve Semelsberger: And so this, this should be a conversation that is personal and special. I've known Jason as a really, really thoughtful observer of topics like leadership, companies, people. What it takes to move through change with ambition and humanity. We also dig subjects like music and reading, you'll hear about some of those things. And so today, if all goes semi-according to plan, as these things can happen, we're going to talk about purpose, organizational resilience, the pace of change, some of the books and ideas that have shaped Jason. And what he's learning now that he's sitting in the CEO chair himself after advising CEOs for many, many years. So, Jason, welcome to the Change Resilient podcast.

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[01:31] Jason Baer: I'm so excited to be here, it's really great to see you again, and thanks for those kind words and for having me on.

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[01:38] Steve Semelsberger: It is… it is a joy to have you, my friend. And so, as you know, the podcast covers the intersection of change and resilience through change across personal, environmental, organizational, technical, and even spiritual dimensions. And so, I'm wondering, Jason, is there a moment that you might share when you experienced as a human your own resilience in the midst of significant change.

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[02:05] Jason Baer: You know, it's such a great question, because resilience is something different than just… endurance or grit, which I think is you're getting through adversity, but not necessarily… adapting, learning from it, and coming out stronger. So… I suppose I could tell the story of, you know, the pandemic, but we all have that story. I got better in some ways, I got worse in some ways. I certainly learned how to make my own bread, like millions of Americans. But I prefer the story of becoming a marathon runner, because that… was self-imposed, disruption that I learned from. I chose… to be in a circumstance where I was going to experience disruption and need to, develop my own resiliency, and… you know…

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[02:56] Steve Semelsberger: Did you grow up as a runner, Jason? Is running something you've always done?

 

[02:59] Jason Baer: Far from it. I actually… I ran from running. I never understood it. I always thought, you know, unless you're being chased, why on earth would someone do that? And I actually really came to it in my… mid to late 40s during the pandemic, when I just needed to get out of the house, but I found it to be this immensely meditative act, and something that seems both absurd and also innately human to do, and I could talk for ages about the power of running and why I would advocate it to anyone who can.

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[03:33] Jason Baer: But the path was anything but linear for me, you know? I… experienced a number of setbacks. You know, I went at first from not being able to run for more than, you know, 4 minutes, to then being able to run 4 miles, to being able to run for 4 hours, and that happens over the course of, you know, a couple of years, really, and… all of these setbacks, I realized that my sense of what progress looked like coming in was not necessarily what progress was going to be, even though I held fast to the end results of, you know, what the core mission was here. And… I learned that each setback is not a thing to endure, it's a thing to learn about, and to study, and to embrace, and to overcome bit by bit. So, do I stretch a little bit here? Do I strengthen? Do I need to give myself time off? Do I need to muscle through?

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[04:27] Jason Baer: Thank God for the internet and being able to learn and ask all these questions, lots of runners out there willing to help, but that, that was a really powerful, lesson. I have to say, you know, eventually I ran a marathon. I had a… pretty decent time, but I think none of that was as important as the lesson in resilience that I learned through the process.

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[04:52] Steve Semelsberger: What a great story. Have you run more marathons since?

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[04:57] Jason Baer: You know, I… I've run a number of half marathons since. Now, in my 50s, I'm learning, you know, it takes so much out of you to run a marathon that you really end up having to take time off, and I don't like taking time off, but you can run a half marathon and take a few days and then get right back to it, so I think that's my new… that's my new thing.

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[05:17] Steve Semelsberger: It is… it is a good approach. So, I had something in my knees called Osgood-Schlatter disease when I was about 13 years old. And so, my knees have not been my strong part, but when I was about 30, I decided to run a marathon, Jason. Well, the knees acted up. And so I cut back my training, and I trained up to a half. So I got to a point where I was, you know, training 6 to 8 miles or so, felt pretty good. Went out the day of what I thought was a half marathon. And I ran a whole marathon. I wouldn't recommend it, you know, if you haven't trained for it. You can imagine, Jason, what mile 21, 22 was like.

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[05:55] Steve Semelsberger: But I felt the presence of my stepfather, who had died recently. And I think he carried me through, man, in a way that, you know, felt like he was holding my hand. Plus, it was a downhill course, it was a beautiful morning in Austin, Texas. So that was my only marathon, and it felt great to accomplish it, but I, you know, I commend you for doing it the, you know, quote-unquote, right way.

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[06:19] Jason Baer: I don't know if there's a right way to do such, like, an absurd thing, but boy, what a crazy story that is. I don't… not too many people, you know, train for a half marathon and finish it and think, you know what I'd love, is to do that again. But you, but you somehow, you somehow did.

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[06:36] Steve Semelsberger: Oh, Arnie Goldstein carried me through, man. Thank you, Arnie. So let's talk a little bit more about our shared history and this journey of SYPartners going back. You and I first started working together in 2014, and we're recording here on September 1st, 2026. So, if you think, and it's hard for us as humans to do this, about, like, the person and leader that you were 10 years ago versus today. What do you think has changed the most, besides the fact that you've run your marathon and learned new resilience lessons through that? What's changed the most about you, Jason, and what do you think's remained consistent?

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[07:18] Jason Baer: 10 years, has it been that long? It's 10 years since we were.

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[07:20] Steve Semelsberger: Well, I guess, yeah.

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[07:22] Jason Baer: It's such an interesting increment, because… have you ever heard of this thing? It's called the End of History Illusion? It was this study, you're familiar with it?

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[07:31] Steve Semelsberger: No, I'm not, tell me more.

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[07:33] Jason Baer: these, a group of psychologists, psychiatrists studied, I think it was, like, 19,000 people of all different ages, from, like, 15 through 90, and they asked them. How much have you changed over the last 10 years, and how much do you anticipate changing in the next 10 years? And what was remarkably consistent, no matter the age, whether you're 15 or 80, you… felt like you had changed tremendously over the last 10 years, but you were essentially complete now, as a person. That was me. It's a very funny thing that we, we tend to underestimate how much we are work… works in progress. We said it's a flaw, we think we're complete somehow. So I'm sure 10 years ago, when we worked together, I thought I was complete, and I was fully who I was, but I've changed a lot. I think maybe, you know, you mentioned leadership.

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[08:34] Jason Baer: I think maybe the biggest way in which I've changed is I'm… much less interested in proving, mostly to myself, that I can do it all. I took a lot of pride in figuring things out, mastering new skills, and needing to do a lot myself. And over time, I've learned that leadership is almost the opposite. I've surrounded myself with people who are better than I am at most things, and I try to create conditions for them to do… great work. And I remember hearing recent… just recently, that Andrew Carnegie wanted his epitaph on his headstone to read something like, here lies the man who is able to surround himself with people far cleverer than he was. And for such an accomplished person to say that was his greatest accomplishment was… was finding and being in the company of… other great people and getting them to do their best work.

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[09:31] Jason Baer: Apparently, his family didn't think that was a great enough accolade for his life, and they didn't put it on his headstone in spite of his hopes, but… so this is, like, a big thing for me that I think has changed quite a lot.

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[09:45] Steve Semelsberger: Oh, man. I went to the St. Louis Public Library, which is one of the Carnegie endowments, and it is such a civic gift to a city that I believe is on the rebound, St. Louis, if you ever have a chance to visit that library. It inspired me so much, Jason. that I… I think I want to take a Midwestern library tour. I went to the Detroit Central Library not too long ago as well, too, so that's 2 out of the 11 that are on my list. Maybe we'll talk about libraries a bit more, because I want to get… I want to get deeper into this… this notion of… leadership. And working with CEOs. So you've worked with leaders of various levels, inclusive of some very amazing CEOs, CEOs that are on the covers of magazines doing interviews with, you know, all the media personalities, household name CEOs.

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[10:35] Steve Semelsberger: And so you've sat beside these CEOs and leadership teams, and now you're not only a leader, but you're in the CEO chair. This is fairly recent for you here in 2026. And so, what… what feels different when, at the end of the day, people turn to you now as a CEO, and you might have to make some decisions, as you're surrounded by incredible people like Carnegie, but still, you now carry different levels of responsibility. So… so tell me, how is that feeling for you?

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[11:04] Jason Baer: Well, I'm really fortunate to be in the position I'm in, to be the CEO of a company as my partners that I love so dearly, as you know. a company's work I believe in so wholeheartedly. So this is not a role I've ever, oddly, in my life, really aimed at or thought, you know, I'd like to do that someday, as much as I've advised other CEOs, but for this company. I couldn't be more honored and more grateful to do it. And I'm really also fortunate that I've gotten to advise so many CEOs through the years, so I… I don't know how many CEOs have that. That advantage, that history of seeing cEOs struggle, thrive, succeed, work through adversity, and being in a position where you can talk openly, one-on-one, about those things, so I've learned a lot.

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[12:01] Jason Baer: You mentioned decision making. That's a… that's a big one. someone you and I both know, Dickie Steele, wrote an article in Harvard Business Review many years ago, and it was, you know, judge a company not by its… the depth of its plans, but by its velocity of decision-making, and how many decisions it can make, meaningful decisions in a given year. And… I've seen organizations where their biggest obstacle to decision-making isn't even just clarity of who makes the decision, but it's that a decision is on the table. Companies talk about topics. Let's talk about this. Without framing what the decision that should come out of that conversation ultimately needs to be.

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[12:50] Jason Baer: So I've learned to do that, to frame decisions better, to be really clear about how the decision is made. This is not to say I'm perfect at it, I'm still learning myself, but I, you know, there are times to… weigh in, but make it clear that someone else holds the decision in that case, and to let them know that, and to let them know you'll be fully supportive of their decision once they make it. There's so many other lessons, though. Lessons in alignment, lessons in clarity, lessons in leadership that I've learned from CEOs. One thing that's particularly hard, though, that I think I underestimated, Is the challenge of time. Negotiating time constantly. and balancing my priorities. You've been a CEO, Steve, you must have experienced this too. You know, you get pulled in so many directions, and in spite of writing articles even on the topic of, you know, put your time disproportionately into the places that you can add the most value, that's easy to say, it's easy to write about, but when part of the house is on fire, it's hard to say that's someone else's job and you're just gonna completely abandon it to that person.

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[14:01] Jason Baer: You may trust them, have them leading in that area, but you still need to spend some of your time there, and if there are enough of those things, they start to whittle away at, whatever, a 40-hour week, or a 70-hour week, or choose your number is supposed to look like.

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[14:20] Steve Semelsberger: Hmm, this is deep, this is deep. I think you took us to some places that I'd like to push further. So velocity of decision-making is an intriguing topic. I've been a CEO 3 times myself, and one of my shortcomings is I thrive off of change. And so I'm very comfortable with high-velocity decision-making and with ongoing change. And yet, I've failed numerous times because I've made too many changes too quickly. So, when you're working with other CEOs, and you're thinking about not only the velocity of decision-making, shout out Dickie Steele from McKinsey. Great guy, great article, call out, Jason. But this notion of pace of change. When you’re guiding a leader, how do you help them figure out how quickly the company, the organization, the team can actually tackle the decision and the proposed change that that decision might invoke.

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[15:21] Jason Baer: You know, the pace of change is such a tough one, I have a… friend who was the CEO of a really large company, you know, hundreds of thousands of employees, trying to drive really significant change, and he too is a runner, and he used to talk about the pace setter in a race, the person whose job is to be just out in front of everyone else in order to sort of, like, establish a breakneck pace, and it's… and if you go too fast. you lose everybody, everyone runs a worse race, you're moving too fast. But if you go too slow, you're also not accomplishing what you're supposed to do, and he liked to say that the CEO's job and a leader's job is to be that pace setter. And… Which means you have to be really tuned in. To the people around you. And, and ask questions, and see if we're moving as quickly as we can, but not in a way that's reckless or rash, and people don't have time to be thoughtful.

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[16:26] Jason Baer: In the end, I… you know, it might be a… a mistake on my part, but I think I tend to… lean toward, I'd rather go a little too fast and be asked to slow down. than the opposite. Maybe that's just a product of the moment we're into right now. This is as everyone's adapting to change, to instability, to AI. there's a speed I've never seen before in business, and… maybe it's just gonna keep accelerating, and we have to learn to work faster and be more comfortable with speed and disruption, or maybe some of it is also caused by… economic, global instability that might ease up, but… in this moment, I think moving fast is really critical, and… excuse me, I remember… someone told me this story once, I cite it often.

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[17:21] Jason Baer: that there's a, an exercise that the U.S. Army goes through where they're asked, it's a simulation, and they're told they have to go, you know, a few clicks in one direction, and they're gonna encounter, two hills, and they'll… radio it in, and they'll be told which hill they need to… climb where the base that they're looking for is. And in the simulation, all comms go out, and they get to the bottom of the hill, and they have to pick which hill they go up. And turns out the right answer in the simulation is either hill, fast. Because you can get up a hill, realize you've gone up the wrong hill, come back down, and get to the right hill. But it's amazing how many of us set up camp at the base of the hill. And could spend months debating the nature of hills, and ascertaining the strategic value of mounting the hill.

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[18:15] Jason Baer: And so, this idea of just moving quickly, trying things, not treating them too preciously, really being clear about what decisions are above or below the waterline, so that if they're below the waterline, then they could really have irreversible consequences that you're pausing and being thoughtful, but with the rest of it, that you don't need to treat them all that same way, and you could be much faster.

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[18:41] Steve Semelsberger: Yeah, one-way doors and revolving doors…

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[18:43] Jason Baer: All of that, yeah, so many great metaphors for decision making.

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[18:47] Steve Semelsberger: So, so you talked a minute ago about the leader being really tuned in to the organization, and so as a leader is trying to better tune in and determine you know, are they… are they going too quickly? Are they going too slowly? What are some of the signals that they might pick up on? How might leaders actually tune in and determine, like, should we hit the gas harder, or, you know, perhaps slow down?

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[19:16] Jason Baer: You know, it's… I think you need time for dialogue to know that. This is one of those places, actually, where, slowing down Taking time to, to align… to… debate… to sense-make with other people in the organization. I see so many leaders who feel like they don't have time for that. We just… people aren't hungry for direction, they just want to be told what to do. Even if that's true, although I know very few people in life who just want to be told what to do, or they may say it, but then they disagree with what they hear, you need time for discussion, and this is one of those things where I say it often to the companies we work with, you know, it could feel like slowing down, but it's actually an accelerant when you take time to sense-make across large parts of the organization. So you have to be intentional about it. I don't know if… I wish there were, like, signals that you could read. There probably are, and I'm just not… attuned to them, but how to know if you're going too fast and too slow?

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[20:17] Jason Baer: You can set KPIs, you can do employee surveys and ask them that question directly, but I think the best thing is to pull people into a room to have real-time conversations and to sense that energy. You know, one of the most important changes I think we made at SYP recently, when our new leadership team stepped in, is we shifted from quarterly all staff meetings to weekly stand-ups, and they're much shorter, and they're… and major… it's a few updates in the business, and time for discussion, dialogue, shout-outs. You… I'm hearing that that's better for everyone, people feel more connected to the business, but I have a much… a stronger sense because of those meetings of whether people are craving us to do more faster, or to slow down. Right now, I think, because so many companies, especially in our industry in consulting, so much is changing.

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[21:18] Jason Baer: It's such a disruptive time. It's really an evolve-or-die moment for most consulting firms, for most agencies. that the energy in our firm right now is very much, let's move even faster. I think across the board. Everyone wants change, everyone wants it. Now, we're not in one of those moments where you have to manufacture a burning platform or convince people of the case for change. We're well convinced, we just have to get moving with it.

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[21:49] Steve Semelsberger: you know, when offices were more centralized way back when, you know, 15 years ago, etc, you know, I remember that I could… I could sense often by walking around, and I… would intentionally spend time walking the floors, the hallways, popping in, informally talking with people, being near the coffee machine, and it was really hard to justify, but it was a form of trying to pick up on nonverbal cues in many ways, and create spontaneous moments of combustion and dialogue. Fast forward, you know, before my current work, my last CEO position was with a company where we had full-time people in 41 countries and freelancers in 165 countries. Couldn't walk around anymore, Jason. And it was important to have dialogue with my direct reports and to even do skip levels.

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[22:43] Steve Semelsberger: But I felt a lot of times, like, you know, with all hands and things like that as well, too, I wasn't… I wasn't getting enough. And so what I started doing were invitation-based, one-on-ones, quick 30 minutes with people all across the organization of all levels. They were… they were optional. The one thing I did, though, is I asked people to come prepared to answer 3 questions. You know, and the questions were, what's one thing that you love about this company? Because I wanted to start out, you know, with, like, this, like, tender, precious space. What's something that you think we could do better as a company? And then, what's one thing that would help you do your work better? And those three questions turn those one-on-ones from just general discussions, which were always really nice, to, like. things that would give us the ideas to actually change the business, like, right from people on the front lines of the organization. So that was one thing that really helped an enormous… not a very big company, but an enormously distributed company. Are there any other techniques, you know, like that, that you've seen leaders use?

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[23:49] Jason Baer: I'm… this is so uncanny. I know we have a lot in common, from guitars to books. The fact that we've never talked about this, and I… this year, did the exact, and I mean exact same thing.

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[24:04] Steve Semelsberger: Okay, guys, I'm telling you, Jason, I have not, this is not staged, this is real. Keep, keep going, Jason, you did something similar.

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[24:12] Jason Baer: Not just similar. I met every employee, I asked them 3 questions, and they were the same exact 3 questions you asked. I asked, what do you love, why do you stay? Like, what's one thing that's great? What's one thing you would change if you were in my role? One thing that we could do better or differently? And then, where can I be of service to you? What's one thing you need help? width. And, and it was, you know, I also made sure people understood whatever they would share is just between us, and not going back to their manager and saying, hey, you know, you should look...

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[24:45] Steve Semelsberger: So important..

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[24:46] Jason Baer: person. And I think it established a level, hopefully, of honesty and transparency that people see I'm authentically interested as I am, and… in them, in wanting the company to be better, but also for them to thrive at SYP, and so I think that that also allowed… made it easier for people to tell me hard truths, even after those meetings. It's funny, I sort of slow-dripped them over many months, and believe it or not, the very last one is today. I've got one left. I've been doing them since the start of the year.

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[25:19] Steve Semelsberger: Honor, honor to be talking to you on this day, and we'll make sure that we keep you on time for that as well, too. That's super important. So, one of the core elements of SY Partners is this notion of purpose. And maybe one of the reasons you and I have the three same questions, you know, goes back to Keith Yamashita and Susan Schuman and the founding principles of SYP, which are amazing, and I learned so much, really cherished my time.

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[25:52] Steve Semelsberger: And so… so purpose at the same time, like, if I look at the 10-year arc, I was asking you about what's the same or different about you over the last 10 years, like. there has been, from what I've personally seen, you know, sometimes a bit of overuse of purpose, like the sense, "oh, purpose is great, let's, you know, let's lean in and let's create platitudes." And so. If you think about the why today, you know, the meaning, the mission, the purpose in organizations, like. How are companies using purpose in a way that is really authentic? And, you know, when is it still kind of becoming rhetoric and losing its ability to connect people into the meaning behind the work?

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[26:37] Jason Baer: Yeah, you know, the… purpose-centric nature of what SYP does is a big part of the reason I joined, and… the company's 32 years old, been practicing this from the very start, before, you know, somewhat vanguard back then, before it's now, like, a fill-in-the-blank exercise. Of course, you need a purpose, what's yours? Simon Sinek, who, you know, has been very vocal on this topic, I think put it… you know, pretty well. It's the what is important, the how is important, but the why is essential. And I meet leaders who, even if they have a purpose statement for their organization, forget this. They say, you know, if people just understood what we're trying to accomplish. And how, you know, we've made it easy, we've put tools in their hands, we've created workflows so the how… the what is clear and the how is clear.

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[27:31] Jason Baer: And they forget that companies are not machines. That… you don't just design the perfect mousetrap on paper, and then somehow the whole thing works, because every cog, every wheel, every step of that machine is a human being who has fears, and wants, and loves, and relationships, and hopes, and even with AI, this is even more so. We all have the same tools at our disposal, the human being who is motivated by all sorts of things, who's behind those prompts, who's, you know, working that agent, is moved by human behavior, and… having a sense of purpose, knowing why you do what you do. turns out to be a hugely important motivator. None of us are at our best without that. You know, I've changed a bit over the years of… seeing as much the value now of personal purpose as corporate purpose, so there's a lot of companies that have a great corporate purpose.

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[28:30] Jason Baer: But there's also leaders, at the New York Stock Exchange, others, who've done a lot of work to help every employee identify their personal purpose and say, may not be the same as the person sitting next to you. But does that per… how does that personal purpose relate to this job? What is it in your personal ambitions, in your personal sense of, mission and accomplishment, is… makes this a good home for you, or not. In which case, maybe it's time to start looking elsewhere. I think that that's a great exercise. And to your point, a lot of companies don't treat it that way. It's kind of purpose-washing. It's one of these things where you feel like you have to have it. There's a great story, that had been written about extensively. Actually, another one that Harvard Business Review had as a cover story, maybe 10 years ago or so, and it was how Nestle and Mars both by chance happened to come up with the same purpose statement for their pet division at the same time. It was one word different.

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[29:38] Steve Semelsberger: That's like you and I coming up with the same 3 questions. What was behind that?

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[29:42] Jason Baer: Okay, well, one of the… so one was a better world for pets, and one was a better world with pets. And, one of the organizations, Nestle, really rallied around that flag, they promoted it, they put posters everywhere, everyone celebrated it. They felt like this is authentically true to what we do here. this is why I come to work. And so, I think by all accounts, it was probably very good for employee morale. But that's where it started and stopped. And what Paul, who I've gotten to know a bit, who runs… now he runs Mars globally, but at the time he ran the PET Division. He said, if we're gonna say a better world with or for pets, we can't credibly say that and just feed them, because these were two of the biggest pet food suppliers in the world. So, how could we not be in pet health? How could we not be in pet care? How could we not do more and claim that we live up to this promise of a better world for pets?

[30:42] Jason Baer: And so really started to expand the business, and saw it as a growth lever. And he tripled the size of the business in just a few years, and to me, that's another part of the power of purpose, that if you set a bold corporate purpose. It gives you an ambition to actually live up to. It sets some filter and direction for the things you say yes to and the things you take on. In their case, lots of growth and acquisition. But… that, to me, is like a, you know, a stark difference between… I wouldn't say that Nestle purpose-washed at all was true and authentic, but it… they under-leveraged the potential power of purpose.

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[31:25] Steve Semelsberger: I don't know if you heard my dog just bark on almost command right there. That was awesome. He may bark again shortly as he has a friend coming to the front door. You know, you and I love the precision of words. So… was it… was it Paul with Mars who talked about a better world for versus with pets? Do you remember?

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[31:48] Jason Baer: I wish I knew. I don't remember who said for and who said with...

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[31:52] Steve Semelsberger: It's really, really different, although those purpose statements sound identical. I would offer that the for versus the with changes the whole intent, you know? And as a person with a house full of all sorts of creatures. You know, we think a lot about, of course, you know, what they give to us, but what we can do for them. So, interesting, I need… I want to look this one up. Let's… let's talk a little bit more, then, about, you know, how… okay, so… so there's some critical elements of, really living the purpose and helping people tie in their own purpose and, you know, this idea of rapid decision-making and pushing the organization and pace setting.

 

[32:34] Steve Semelsberger: So maybe let me ask this question before I go on to the next one. how often should an organization rethink their purpose? And maybe it's not a time parameter, Jason, maybe it's, like, something's changing in the market, or with the leadership team, or the company, because you must work with organizations who are like, I wonder if our purpose is a little stale. Should we change it? And so, how do you advise companies when they're thinking about re-articulating their purpose?

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[33:05] Jason Baer: Yeah, this is very close to home right now, because we ourselves have a purpose that was set in the last few years. Before I was the CEO, we're in a totally different chapter. The world around us has changed. The nature of what we do is changing so radically. There's a big debate going on inside SYP, where we are specialists in this topic, and often asked how often to change your purpose, whether we should be changing our purpose. To me, it's not a… timeline question, it's… is it still true? Is this why we exist? What… the way in which the world is better for us being in it? And is there an opportunity in it to imbue new meaning and recontextualize it for today? So, for example. Our purpose talks about collective potential, that when people work together, they can accomplish more.

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[34:03] Jason Baer: Than they can, separately, and that's… that's true of organizations and companies, that's true of coalitions and movements. A lot of our work is fueled by that, and we've actually spent a lot of time on that half of the purpose statement, but the other half of our purpose statement talks about all that being in service of vital futures. And to me, this is a moment to imbue more meaning into that. What kinds of futures do we think are vital? What are the futures that we and our clients are fighting for? For example, the essential dignity of the human worker in a world where AI is, adding so much value, but… that can't be at the expense of human judgment, creativity, connection.

 

[34:53] Jason Baer: And so, there are things like that that we could put into our purpose, so I still see a lot of territory and room for growth in our purpose. So, to me, it's the substance of it more than a timeline. I… I think people get change-weary if… you CEOs tend to change, I don't know what the latest data is, you know, but not very… it's not uncommon for a CEO to be changed every 2 to 3 years, but if a company is changing its purpose every two to three years, that's too much. That's too disruptive, I think, for organizations, and starts to… demean what the… it starts to just become a headline, and not really carry its true weight as this enduring truth that it's supposed to be.

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[35:38] Steve Semelsberger: Yeah. It's amazing. It's really, really, a good perspective, and, you know, was thinking more about the work with people on the front lines of the business that SYP often invokes, and there was… there was one leader, who I remember was really working to shift the perception of… of people about their hospitality brand, about, you know, actually being get guests in the lives of people who visit their properties, rather than thinking the people who come in as their guests. And those kinds of radical mindset shifts, behavior, process, incentive, like, the whole thing often changes as you change that. That system and that perspective, so the purpose can be the starting point.

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[36:25] Steve Semelsberger: But then you might, you know, you might ask people to radically change the day-to-day of their existence, of their job itself. So, when… when you're working with leaders and they're thinking about massive… call them transformations, what… what do you see teams and leaders sometimes underestimating about people on the front lines, and about their ability to make changes that leadership teams are imagining?

 

[36:57] Jason Baer: This ability to translate, a… intent and ambition held at the corporate level down to the actions of everyone who works there is, I think, the hardest act. Of a leadership team and of a company. It's actually at the core of what I think we do, and a lot of the ingredients of that are things like clarity, for example. One of the things… is there… is there a clear sense of where we're going, or have we gotten below pillars and… platitudes and statements, and I'm not saying then getting to the opposite end of the spectrum and… wiring workflows and saying, do exactly this thing in this way, but have we gotten pretty precise about the vision of this organization, what it is we're trying to do and accomplish? I think sometimes change stalls getting down to the front lines when there's not sufficient clarity that translates to day-to-day work.

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[38:00] Jason Baer: there's that apocryphal story of the man Kennedy met at NASA, who was cleaning the floors, and he introduced himself, he said, what do you do? And the guy looked at him quizzically, and, you know, he said, well, I'm putting a man on the moon, sir. And everyone loves that story, because the idea that anyone doing anything in this organization can see their way all the way up to the mission. is… is powerful, and it's the gold standard for great organization, but it's easy to say and hard to do, and so you actually have to work with the managers in the middle of the organization. To me, this is the biggest part of the unlock that, I've heard these terms that I don't love, like frozen middle, that VPs and managers are stuck, and they can be stuck, but it's not because they themselves are… somehow inept, or not up for the change. It's because they're stuck in the middle of meeting the needs of their teams who are serving clients, who are closest to customers, who… are really driving the demands of the business that we have today.

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[39:07] Jason Baer: And try to then negotiate that with the organization the leaders want the company to be tomorrow. And the number of times there's this stalemate that happens between executive teams, and then the larger group of, you know, there might be some leadership body that might be 100 people wide, or 1,000 people wide, it depends on the size of the company. And the leadership team is saying, we've spelled it out over and over again, why aren't leaders picking this up and doing their job? and driving that change through the organization. How is it that we have all the wrong leaders who are not able to do this? And that bigger body of leaders is looking up at the executive team and saying, when are people going to finally tell us exactly what that… when is that strategy going to get some teeth on it, and we're going to actually understand what this means for our work? this is, you know, so much of the work that SY Partners does, is getting into that space and actually helping to activate the changes, which often means enrolling people. The lead… the executive team doesn't know. They're not down at the level of your job and can say exactly how that should work.

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[40:15] Jason Baer: But people need more than just a strategy presented to them, or a story shared. They need to be equipped with tools to localize and translate that strategy down to the day-to-day work of their teams. And that… that is, it's an art, but it's also a science, and it takes time and care, and it's a step that a lot of organizations skip, because they just want to move fast, and they just want to bang the table and say go. But you have to do that work, especially if you're driving non-incremental change, if you're asking people to do their jobs in fundamentally different ways. It takes… takes quite a lot of work.

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[40:52] Steve Semelsberger: No, it's really… yeah, it's really hard. I was talking with a friend, and it was describing how much I love what I do. And he, he, he's in middle management. And he, he just very… clearly turned to me, and he said, well, Steve, that's because you get to make the decisions. And it was, like, one of those powerful moments. I was like… yes, you know, making the decision, being a part of that team that comes, as you were describing earlier, Jason. to the re-articulation, to the modification, to the innovation, to the process change, and there's something really, really special in that, and I think sometimes it's easy to lose sight of, like, the honor that certain times we have as leaders have in that. And I've seen sometimes even when people, like, kind of agree with the thing when they haven't been part of it.

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[41:49] Steve Semelsberger: as much as we work to make it clear for them, they may not have that same sense of ownership and pride in the creative process. I mean, there is artistry in coming up with this stuff, you know, especially when you have a blank canvas and you're, you know, you're imagining a vital future. And so… man, this is hard stuff. Do you have any other tips for people who have, you know, made those decisions, and they're really trying to work to get that next level management team, on board? Any techniques? You know, we talked about listening tours for CEOs to tune in. Any ways to try and help people really feel like they're a part of it more, even if they weren't in the, like, the inner team that actually designed the new thing.

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[42:34] Jason Baer: Well, that's an interesting thing you just said at the end, because ideally, they are part of the designing. I know a CEO of a very large organization who rolled out a strategy in his first… 3 to 6 months, but did not… involved the organization. There were no moments of input. And even if the strategy was perfect on paper, and there was a lot of greatness in that strategy, the organization rejected it for no other reason than it wasn't theirs. And so this… I do think… it's hard when you're already at that point, you've got the strategy, how do you now enroll everyone when they weren't part of it? But even then, I would say there's probably a level of specificity in your strategy that doesn't yet exist. and you have to enroll in the organization to fill in that next level of clarity. You know, you mentioned, like, your friend in middle management who… would say, you know, you get to make the decision, so… our jobs are fundamentally different, but I think one of the great things a great leader does in an organization is distribute agency.

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[43:44] Steve Semelsberger: Yeah.

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[43:45] Jason Baer: And… you talk about resilience. If you want a resilient organization, to me, that's one of the key ingredients. You have to distribute agency. Otherwise, it's too… there's bottlenecks, it's too reliant on the whims and time of a handful of people. And it doesn't mean that everything is distributed. You still have to drive critical decisions from the top. Often, you know, leaders who appreciate the idea of decentralization and distribution get… uncomfortable making decisions themselves, so it's a real balance in an art, but I… I think that that's, critical, and you have to treat people as participants in change, not as recipients of it.

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[44:37] Steve Semelsberger: Distributing agency and reminding people of how much agency they have is so important, Jason. It reminded me a bit of a conversation that I had on this podcast with another friend. His name is Brett Hurt. And Brett's a multi-time technology entrepreneur, has a book now called Love Conquers Fear. And the subtitle of the book is something like, I'll misquote it, you know, AI and the Coming Age of Abundance for All of Humanity. And we went deep on this notion of agency in our conversation. And another episode that will come up soon is with a futurist named Byron Rees, who wrote a book called We Are Agora, which is about superorganisms, and the idea that things like cities are perhaps analogous to beehives, that the city itself is a superorganism consisting of suborganisms, and that, you know, we as humans are much more than than the individuals that we are. So, you and I dig books, and we like authors as well, too, so I'm curious, what have you read lately that you might recommend to our audience?

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[45:46] Jason Baer: Well, you know, I tried… I'm usually reading a book and listening to a book, so I can handle two books at once. I'll listen when I run. Sometimes, and then we'll also be physically reading a book, and I try to balance fiction and nonfiction. I've read a couple of great, fiction books, actually, this year. One of them is called A Month in the Country. by a JL Carr, and it's… it's a… it's like one of these if-you-know-you-know books. It was written, I think, maybe around 2000? And… Stephen Friedman, actually, who you and I both know, had recommended it to me. And it seems like a country idol. It's a very short book. It's about a man restoring a painting in a rural church. And as both the mural and the man's history are slowly revealed, you remember that none of us can fully return to who we were, that there's no going backwards in life, and it's a… true masterwork, with themes in judgment, and memory, and religion, and art, and I can't recommend it enough. It's one of the greatest things I've read.

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[47:01] Jason Baer: I also read this book as another, unusual book, and also quite short, and it's called… A Mountain to the North, a Lake to the South, Paths to the West, a River to the East. That's quite a long title. László Krasznahorkai, I think is the writer's name. And it's this book of this unknown, like, unnamed man. Wandering in uninhabited monastery in an uninhabited Kyoto. And he's trying to find this enchanted, secret garden. That he's… he senses is there, and he's… the monastery itself is almost like a puzzle box, and each chapter is just a couple of pages as he gets deeper into this monastery, and there's a sense of tension in it, but what I love is that it's nothing like a traditional narrative, and as much as it seems otherworldly.

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[48:07] Jason Baer: In a way, it's the most realistic book, because it… our real lives don't have… neat endings and story arcs that are well architected with a protagonist and an antagonist and all the things that we love in stories. This was full of mystery and ambiguous meaning and left to you to figure out, and I feel like that's, like, real life, too. Which then is a good segue to the third and the last book, I'd say that I've read recently, A Swim in a Pond in the Rain by George Saunders. So, he's an American treasure, one of the greatest living writers. And he teaches a class, a grad-level, creative writing class that is helping people learned to read Russian short stories as a way to learn to read literature, and to interpret literature. And he… each… there's 7, I think it is, Russian stories by Chekhov and others, and each one is fully contained in the book, but then there's a chapter where he talks to you about… how did that land on you, and did you consider questions like this, and did you notice this?

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[49:19] Jason Baer: But ultimately, what he's trying to help you remember is that the muscle in you, the part of your brain you use to interpret stories you read. Is it the same part of your brain you use to interpret the story of your life? And why would you not want to sharpen that? And it's the best argument I've ever heard for reading fiction, that I know, and it's a marvelous book.

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[49:44] Steve Semelsberger: Mmm, I love that, and I wrote down all three of those, and we'll put those book titles and some links in the show notes as well, too, in case our guests want to dig in. Do you have a preference, on fiction, nonfiction, listening versus physically reading?

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[50:01] Jason Baer: I prefer… I can't listen to, non-fiction, because I like to take notes, I like to retain things, and I… especially if you're running, you know, there's no way to, like, quickly tag the audio file, like, it's just… so I tend to only listen to fiction, but I'll read both. I heard the story of this woman, she was running in London, and she was so absorbed with her book, she fell right into the, to the lake in the middle of Hyde Park. you know, you can get pretty caught up in what you're reading, so, I've learned what I'm better listening to and what I'm better reading.

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[50:39] Steve Semelsberger: First time I brought one of my dogs, an 85-pound curly-coated retriever, to Hyde Park in London. We had just moved over there as a young family. The dog took off running towards the swans. And I thought, -oh, -oh, and then a swan reared out of the water, spread his wings, and scared the dog right back to us. So these are… these are powerful and important books that you've shared with us. Curious as maybe an ending point, because I know you need to run and get back to your client and teamwork. Are there… are there some non-fiction books that have influenced you as a leader? People might be curious about this… this work of purpose and resiliency and change and, you know, how you guide and how you coach. You mentioned Simon Sinek. Any authors or specific books that you feel have really helped you and your work at SYPartners?

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[51:37] Jason Baer: You know, I mean, there's so many classics, like, you know, the Power of Habit, and… you know, many… books on organizational change, personal change. I used to be obsessed with these books, but in a way, they're a form of self-help. I find that there's… I've gravitated over time to books that help me understand people, in more timeless ways than the modern business books, so, there's a, there's a great biography that Walter Isaacson wrote about Leonardo da Vinci.

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[52:18] Steve Semelsberger: Yeah.

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[52:18] Jason Baer: That I…

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[52:19] Steve Semelsberger: It's wonderful.

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[52:20] Jason Baer: Yeah, you've read it too. It's a great… I mean, that's a great book. There's, a book called Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari...

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[52:29] Steve Semelsberger: Mmm.

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[52:30] Jason Baer: ...changed how I think about being human, what it.

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[52:32] Steve Semelsberger: Yeah, it's sitting right over there, I can almost reach out and touch it right now in my home office.

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[52:37] Jason Baer: I will be online to read anything that man writes the day comes out. But that book also changed the way I think about being a person and being a leader. There's a great book called Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman, that also changed the way I think about instinct and thought patterns and how you make decisions.

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[52:58] Steve Semelsberger: The peak-last heuristic is wonderful, man. I apply that a lot when I remember it.

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[53:03] Jason Baer: I, I used to keep a list of all the human biases and heuristics, so I could remember, like, even to just keep myself in check. Am I being thoughtful here, or am I just defaulting to my core code programming as a human being? But I, those are 3 examples, but there are so many great books. You and I, often get to trade recommendations. If you ask me on any given day, I'm sure I'll have a different list.

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[53:31] Steve Semelsberger: I'm so there with you on going deep and going back. So there's a translation of the Tao Te Ching by Stephen Mitchell that I turn to most mornings. I'm reading more poetry. I've been working to understand the Bhagavad Gita. There's also a Stephen Mitchell translation of it. And so there is such wisdom. I have a cat named Seneca. The Stoics have so much to teach us, so…

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[53:57] Jason Baer: I know you're a stoic.

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[53:58] Steve Semelsberger: You and I are on such similar paths, man, the three listening questions and, you know, the return to the ancients.

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[54:04] Jason Baer: Yeah, if you love the Tao Te Ching, I would also recommend Ursula Le Guin's, translation. It's… it's spectacular.

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[54:14] Steve Semelsberger: It's done, it's written. Jason, it is such a pleasure. We didn't even talk about music, you know, there's so many topics that I would have loved to have gotten into. You've been generous with your time for our listeners. Thank you so much. Again, everybody, Jason Baer, the CEO of SY Partners. Look up SYP if you're interested in, you know, how organizations achieve greatness and really align with their fundamental purpose. Jason, thank you again for joining us today.

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[54:45] Jason Baer: This has been a whole lot of fun. Thank you, Steve.
 

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